This forum is in archive mode. You will not be able to post new content.

Author Topic: Systemd  (Read 2170 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline vezzy

  • Royal Highness
  • ****
  • Posts: 771
  • Cookies: 172
    • View Profile
Systemd
« on: March 07, 2014, 03:26:01 PM »
systemd is the death of the Unix philosophy. If it ever gets to Slackware, I'm moving to FreeBSD and I don't give a shit.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 01:06:02 AM by vezzy »
Quote from: Dippy hippy
Just brushing though. I will be semi active mainly came to find a HQ botnet, like THOR or just any p2p botnet

Offline lucid

  • #Underground
  • Titan
  • **
  • Posts: 2683
  • Cookies: 243
  • psychonaut
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Post your deskTOP
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2014, 07:21:26 PM »
systemd is the death of the Unix philosophy. If it ever gets to Slackware, I'm moving to FreeBSD and I don't give a shit.
Not that I'm arguing otherwise, but why do you say that?
"Hacking is at least as much about ideas as about computers and technology. We use our skills to open doors that should never have been shut. We open these doors not only for our own benefit but for the benefit of others, too." - Brian the Hacker

Quote
15:04  @Phage : I'm bored of Python

Offline vezzy

  • Royal Highness
  • ****
  • Posts: 771
  • Cookies: 172
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Post your deskTOP
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2014, 08:11:15 PM »
1). It is monolithic beyond any excuse. It incorporates around 120 binaries and it handles *everything*, far exceeding what an init system should do. This includes power management, disk encryption, mount point handling, device insertion/removal and countless other things. Thus it gruesomely violates the Unix philosophy.

2). Journal data is stored in a binary format.

3). It breaks compatibility with non-Linux systems due to relying on dozens of Linux-specific features, thus essentially locking the Linux ecosystem into a cage and leaving out everyone else. Frankly this is repugnant, chauvinistic and is a stab in the back to the whole community aspect of free and open source software.

4). It forces certain dependencies on you like udev and dbus. The latter two programs are now deeply coupled with systemd, so if they ever fail, your system goes down and debugging it will be a total bitch. Hope you don't have any USB issues.

4.1) In addition, systemd's sheer mammoth size and scope makes it a single point of failure and a huge attack surface. I expect to see a rise of Linux exploitation and malware in its wake. Perhaps not, but it's still going to be a juicy target. It's already had quite a few CVEs, IIRC.

5). It is overtaking Linux like a plague. Distros are adopting it left and right without thinking of the consequences or holding any meaningful debate, leading to a dominance which will eventually force every distro maintainer to succumb and adopt systemd or vanish into obscurity.

5.1). In extension to the last point, systemd is toxically starting to become a dependency in everything. For instance, new versions of GNOME now rely on systemd to work, breaking compatibility with *BSD and other Unixes. Due to how deeply ingrained systemd is (it's practically a second kernel), more packages will follow and we will likely see a rift in how FOSS works. The days of software being relatively easily interoperable between all Unix-like systems will be gone, and lots of software will become Linux-exclusive due to relying on systemd.

6). Most critically: systemd clusters everything into PID 1. This is where daemon processes get orphaned, however it's also the root PID, which, if it goes down, crashes the entire system along with it. Since systemd tries to make use of it as much as possible, besides also being a single point of failures, it necessitates rebooting to apply non-kernel updates.

That is simply inexcusable and atrocious on a fucking Unix-like operating system. I might as well switch to Windows.

Now, granted, systemd does offer a mechanism where it reserializes its state and goes on uninterrupted. However, as a result of the PID 1 dilemma, if the mechanism fails, instead of the process simply failing, THE WHOLE SYSTEM GOES DOWN. And trust me, there's many ways it can fail even with the security checks that the systemd API offers.

7). Due to all the dependencies, scope and rigorous methodology that it imposes, distro maintainers are pretty much forced to use certain packages over others if they don't want any other headaches on top of those systemd gladly gives you out of the box.

8. (fucking emoticon breaking my consistency)

systemd doesn't have shell scripts, it has unit files. You can't call shell scripts directly, you have to put them in a service and enable them from systemctl. On the flip side, this makes extensibility much harder. You can't just write a shell script and quickly hack in any functionality you want. You have to deal with all the complexity that systemd inherently provides. What's more is that it has completely removed shell scripts from the boot process and turned everything to C code. If a startup procedure goes wrong, you now have to debug and recompile C code on a core system. Fun, isn't it?

9). systemd versions are tightly welded to specific kernel versions due to how many Linux-specific features it uses (abuses?) for whatever purpose.

10). It gives you no choice. The fundamental nature of systemd is that it completely takes over and revamps the way your system functions from the groundup. Like I said, it's pretty much akin to a second kernel. It forces you to work in certain ways and it breaks compatibility with tons of software. It's parasitic, and not adopting it will leave you at a complete disadvantage in the ecosystem, so virtually all distro maintainers will need to make the move eventually.

If systemd becomes unavoidable, which it looks like it is... Arch, Gentoo, Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, openSUSE and others have already sold out. In that event, the moment no up-to-date distro remains without systemd, I'm leaving behind Linux once and for all and migrating to BSD permanently.

On the other hand, if there is a significant resistance and non-systemd distros start popping up, I might stay. Linux is getting too commercialized for its own good. It's no longer a grassroots effort, it's a corporate platform. You can't deny this.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 08:12:40 PM by vezzy »
Quote from: Dippy hippy
Just brushing though. I will be semi active mainly came to find a HQ botnet, like THOR or just any p2p botnet

Offline lucid

  • #Underground
  • Titan
  • **
  • Posts: 2683
  • Cookies: 243
  • psychonaut
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Post your deskTOP
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2014, 08:23:11 PM »
I won't deny it. That was one of the things that has always disappointed me about Arch for example. Despite the fact that Arch is still KISS, it's developers seem to want to do everything in there power to make it into it's own unique system foreign to other *nix users. I have noticed this about Linux in general as it get's more popular. That's one of the reasons that I loved Slackware.

Anything that gets popular generally has things like this happen to it unfortunately. Thanks for your explanation vezzy.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 08:23:36 PM by lucid »
"Hacking is at least as much about ideas as about computers and technology. We use our skills to open doors that should never have been shut. We open these doors not only for our own benefit but for the benefit of others, too." - Brian the Hacker

Quote
15:04  @Phage : I'm bored of Python

Offline frog

  • Knight
  • **
  • Posts: 232
  • Cookies: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Post your deskTOP
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2014, 09:48:01 PM »
@vezzy, your argument is sound. I agree with you, truth is the same thing could happen to FreeBSD or any Unix with the right attention. I feel like every popular unix-based OS has the potential to become Ubuntu(that sounds bad I know), and as the desktop-user needs all the bells and whistles in their OS, the OS will probably be developed in that direction(look at pc-bsd or ghostbsd). FreeBSD for the desktop user; and their on the way to Ubuntu status. I personally like standards, being able to leverage the same toolset/method on another unix-based OS and call it a day. That's just not going to happen though.

Offline vezzy

  • Royal Highness
  • ****
  • Posts: 771
  • Cookies: 172
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Post your deskTOP
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2014, 10:09:53 PM »
There's nothing particularly wrong with PC-BSD and GhostBSD. At least, not yet. They do serve their purpose and they do it with as minimal limitation as possible.

Yes, theoretically it could occur with *BSD or any other Unix. However, Linux is much larger than any other Unix-like system (sans OS X, of course) and receives the most interest from virtually all sides.

The mentality behind *BSD is much different, as well. The audience is primarily conservative Unix hackers who stick to their roots as much as possible. Of course, the systems are still used by corporations (Microsoft and Apple have been using TCP/IP code from FreeBSD for ages, and the PlayStation 4 runs on FreeBSD 9.0), but they're still nowhere near at risk.

Finally, I completely disagree with your final statement. That is nothing but blatant defeatism.

"Oh, but they've already integrated systemd too deeply! It's too late! We better give up!"

"Oh, but they've already confiscated our firearms and are coming to get us! It's too late! We better give up!"

You don't give up, you fucking fight. You start boycotting systemd-based distros, publicly voicing your disdain and most importantly start supporting and working on non-systemd projects.

There's lots of people who despise systemd and I'm absolutely certain there's going to be a renaissance of distros based on OpenRC, Upstart and other init systems, as a protest against systemd adoption.

While dethroning systemd likely won't happen, having an active alternative is a must.

I'm pretty sure we will see a bunch of new non-systemd distros show up, so I'm optimistic in that regard. Right now there's still Slackware, and in my opinion, it needs more attention.
Quote from: Dippy hippy
Just brushing though. I will be semi active mainly came to find a HQ botnet, like THOR or just any p2p botnet

Offline frog

  • Knight
  • **
  • Posts: 232
  • Cookies: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Post your deskTOP
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2014, 12:36:33 AM »
Agreed, I just want to say that I like your point of view vezzy. Thank you for your insight and explanations. You're right I kind of just sit on the sidelines, when I could be more active in the community; however what you say does encourage me.

Offline proxx

  • Avatarception
  • Global Moderator
  • Titan
  • *
  • Posts: 2803
  • Cookies: 256
  • ФФФ
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Post your deskTOP
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2014, 12:41:36 AM »
Can someone merge this with a new topic plz ?
I would like to jump on the boat but not in the  ( Re: Post your deskTOP ) topic.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 12:42:40 AM by proxx »
Wtf where you thinking with that signature? - Phage.
This was another little experiment *evillaughter - Proxx.
Evilception... - Phage

Offline lucid

  • #Underground
  • Titan
  • **
  • Posts: 2683
  • Cookies: 243
  • psychonaut
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Post your deskTOP
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2014, 12:42:47 AM »
Will do.
"Hacking is at least as much about ideas as about computers and technology. We use our skills to open doors that should never have been shut. We open these doors not only for our own benefit but for the benefit of others, too." - Brian the Hacker

Quote
15:04  @Phage : I'm bored of Python

Offline socrates93

  • NULL
  • Posts: 3
  • Cookies: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Systemd
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2014, 11:53:53 PM »
Here is a site with the cons of systemd: http://boycottsystemd.org/

Offline lucid

  • #Underground
  • Titan
  • **
  • Posts: 2683
  • Cookies: 243
  • psychonaut
    • View Profile
Re: Systemd
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2014, 12:21:32 AM »
Here is a site with the cons of systemd: http://boycottsystemd.org/
Heh, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that the link you posted belongs to the very man who created this thread. Good job vezzy you made it happen.
"Hacking is at least as much about ideas as about computers and technology. We use our skills to open doors that should never have been shut. We open these doors not only for our own benefit but for the benefit of others, too." - Brian the Hacker

Quote
15:04  @Phage : I'm bored of Python

Offline socrates93

  • NULL
  • Posts: 3
  • Cookies: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Systemd
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2014, 12:37:21 AM »
Heh, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that the link you posted belongs to the very man who created this thread. Good job vezzy you made it happen.

Well, he didn't posted it and there is a bit more info on that site. There are also with references on that site. So it doesn't realy matter that it's his site.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 12:39:58 AM by socrates93 »

Offline lucid

  • #Underground
  • Titan
  • **
  • Posts: 2683
  • Cookies: 243
  • psychonaut
    • View Profile
Re: Systemd
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2014, 12:53:02 AM »
Well, he didn't posted it and there is a bit more info on that site. There are also with references on that site. So it doesn't realy matter that it's his site.
Well, maybe he just created it and hadn't gotten around to it yet. I was just mentioning it and thought I'd congratulate him so if you don't mind fucking off with the attitude that'd be really appreciated sweetheart.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 12:53:30 AM by lucid »
"Hacking is at least as much about ideas as about computers and technology. We use our skills to open doors that should never have been shut. We open these doors not only for our own benefit but for the benefit of others, too." - Brian the Hacker

Quote
15:04  @Phage : I'm bored of Python

Offline vezzy

  • Royal Highness
  • ****
  • Posts: 771
  • Cookies: 172
    • View Profile
Re: Systemd
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2014, 12:55:37 AM »
Heh, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that the link you posted belongs to the very man who created this thread. Good job vezzy you made it happen.

Actually, it doesn't. I know one of the people behind it, however. But no, I had no direct involvement in it.
Quote from: Dippy hippy
Just brushing though. I will be semi active mainly came to find a HQ botnet, like THOR or just any p2p botnet

Offline lucid

  • #Underground
  • Titan
  • **
  • Posts: 2683
  • Cookies: 243
  • psychonaut
    • View Profile
Re: Systemd
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2014, 01:17:20 AM »
Oh, it had the same URL that you were talking about. Eh, whatever. Socrates93 is still a bitchy queen.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 01:17:47 AM by lucid »
"Hacking is at least as much about ideas as about computers and technology. We use our skills to open doors that should never have been shut. We open these doors not only for our own benefit but for the benefit of others, too." - Brian the Hacker

Quote
15:04  @Phage : I'm bored of Python

 



Want to be here? Contact Ande, Factionwars or Kulverstukas on the forum or at IRC.