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Offline Darkvision

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suggestions on *nix distro?
« on: September 19, 2013, 06:56:14 PM »
Well to start with, i already have ubuntu loaded on a thumb drive ready to go. But ive been reading what a lot of you have been saying here about some of the other flavors, and some of the bad things you've been saying about ubuntu in particular. So i know what i want/need from my *nix distro but frankly the ones im familiar with are A older than dirt, and i doubt exist in that form any more or B proprietary DoD distros. So if you know me, i started off in DOS, i fucking love command line, but i dont mind having a gui for doing some of the work as well. to me it really depends on what your trying to do as to which provides more power at the time. That being said i loved the look/feel of old 90's issue redhat. i loved that the OS was modular, and that the boot let you see what modules were running, or that you could select a different boot to run a different set of modules if you needed a different capability. To me taht is "jumping in at the deep end" which i love. i want to know the nitty grity, and it doesnt scare me.
That being said one of my OTHER requirements is that i hopefully will never load windows on this machine, but that means it will need to support steam, and have a good working workaround to play Leauge of Legends. Frankly i can live without LoL but i have to have a *nix distro that is stable in steam. I know that ubuntu is more or less, but what other distros are? i dont need flashy pretty shit. I want control, i may not know it all from the start, but i will learn it. So that being said are their any suggestions that match those requirements? :P


p.s. sorry that im not doing more research on this on my own, but as some of you know im trying to deal with 4 dogs and a cat atm, very distracting. its now 12pm, ive been up since 8, and i JUST made my cup of coffee. So some suggestions would be great :)
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Offline proxx

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Re: suggestions on *nix distro?
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2013, 08:12:02 PM »
If you want deep internals go for something like gentoo maybe arch or a BSD flavour.
Ubuntu is well .. just ubuntu.
If you wanna get something really 'hardcore' try linux from scratch and build your own distro.

Maybe the OS section would be more suited.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 08:12:22 PM by proxx »
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Offline flowjob

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Re: suggestions on *nix distro?
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2013, 08:18:24 PM »
Does the steam-client have to be the native one? Because then you would have to go for a debian-based distro, as there is only a package provided for debian-based distros...


Or would steam through wine be enough?
Then I would recommend arch, it has a big community and a huge repo (with the aur), and it comes with almost nothing preinstalled, so you can put together exactly what you want...
And with the systemd targets (similar to runlevel, but a bit more complex) you could choose at the boot laoder to wich target you want to boot to and by that what deamons/scripts/modules/etc. are loaded...
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Offline Axon

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Re: suggestions on *nix distro?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2013, 08:29:14 PM »
Have you tried Netrunner? it's debian based. I've tried a couple days ago, and I'm already in love with it. I'm really considering replacing Mint with Netrunner.

http://www.netrunner-os.com/

Offline vezzy

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Re: suggestions on *nix distro?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2013, 09:09:17 PM »
For all intents and purposes, there is nothing wrong with using a user-friendly distro, as long as it is fairly reasonable and does not abstract the internals to a degree that are ridiculous (such as Ubuntu). The more distros try to apply their own dedicated configurations, abstractions and tools, the more they become incompatible with the base way of doing things.

Decent examples of user-friendly distros are Debian/CrunchBang, Manjaro, openSUSE (arguably) and so on. If you really want Steam that badly, check out Linux Lite, perhaps? It's Ubuntu-based, but doesn't have that much bloat or take up as many resources.

Now, as for the advanced distributions... there's five major players, three of which are in the spotlight.

First up, the one that I use and like the most, is Slackware. Going strong for 20 years now, it is the oldest actively maintained distribution in existence. The great thing about Slackware is that it is by far the most UNIX-like of all and exposes the internals of your system without any bullshit. Whereas most distros use a System V init system, Slack uses BSD-style initscripts stored in /etc/rc.d. These manage runlevels, system startup, networking, various daemons and so on. Concise and simple.

Slackware's package management system is by far the most minimalistic, and it's binary-based. Slackware packages are basically just tarballs (usually with the .tar.xz extension) with some Slack-specific metadata files and a doinst.sh for post-install config and symlink setup. They are handled locally with a set of basic utilities (installpkg, removepkg, upgradepkg, explodepkg, makepkg), although the first three are most important. There's also an ncurses-based frontend called pkgtool where the functionality of installpkg and removepkg are given a nice TUI. Remember: this is for local packages only.

Slackware has long been criticized for not having automatic dependency resolution or bleeding edge software, but that's missing the point. Slack has always had a conservative development philosophy, with focus on security, stability and having a large amount of software bundled with the installation medium itself. In fact, most things you'd need are in the DVD for you.

There is a network-based package manager called slackpkg which downloads and installs packages from various official FTP mirrors, acting as a frontend to the base package utilities, but with support for download over a network and searching.

Finally, for software that you cannot find through other means, there's something called SlackBuilds. These are special build scripts designed to set up a Slackware package which you can then install to your system using installpkg. There is a website that collects these, with each one being officially approved by Slack devs before they're uploaded, called SlackBuilds.org (or SBo). They also have a tool called sbopkg which automatically interfaces with their site, downloads SlackBuilds, runs them and even gives you the option of directly installing them.

Dependencies have to be resolved manually, but it's rarely an issue, since each package has an info file which notes these. You can make what's known as a queue file, which is a list of packages to install at once, and pipe them in. sbopkg lets you do this natively from its UI.

There's also third-party managers like slapt-get and Swaret that some Slack-based distros used, but their packages aren't necessarily stable, so I don't recommend their usage.

Slackware's installation is easy yet powerful. The only step that needs to be done from a raw command line is the disk partitioning, after which you run the dedicated setup program (an ncurses-based, menu-driven shell script) and do everything from there. You're given a lot of options and ways to manage the control flow, so you're not restricted in any way. What's really nifty is that as the system installs, you have the slack-desc (title+description file) of every package going by. Haven't seen this in any other distro.

Slackware is also the most secure by default. To do package management, you must be root. No exceptions. Sudo doesn't cut it. Some operations like dmesg, which can be done by regular users in other distros, need sudo in Slack.

It's also highly stable and uses LILO. You can set up GRUB later manually post-install, but I prefer LILO. It's so much simpler than the gargantuan monstrosity that is GRUB. Security updates are also constantly given.

In short: If you want rigid stability, vanilla packages, security, to be as close to UNIX as possible and want a bundle of software (base system-only is an option too), go for Slack. It's been tested throughout time and it's a favorite by admins and power users alike. If you're a maniac about constantly having bleeding edge software, then you'll be disappointed. But if you learn Slackware, you learn Linux.

---------------

Arch is much more recent, but it's quite popular for two reasons: bleeding edge software and system simplicity. Arch strives to provide the newest versions every single time, regardless of whether they're stable or not. Arch can potentially break a lot, and to be an Arch user you need a love of troubleshooting and tinkering.

Arch is also a rolling-release distro. Install once, pacman -Syu to have the latest system every time. Whereas Slack has a standard release model.

Arch is pretty famous for its pacman package manager. Once again, it handles binaries, but it has dependency resolution too. Arch packages are also tarballs (a PKGBUILD and some metadata). Package management is pretty similar overall, but Slack's tools are rawer and use the shell, whereas pacman is written in C.

Arch also has the AUR (Arch User Repository), consisting of a large amount of user-submitted software. Stability is not tested, but you should be fine most of the time, and it is pretty huge. There's several frontend programs for it, most commonly used is yaourt. Slack has no definitive user repository, although you can download packages from individual users at your own risk.

Finally, there's the Arch Build System (ABS), where you can download PKGBUILDs that can then be packaged with makepkg and installed with pacman. This is similar to the concept of *BSD ports trees, where everything is handled through source. However this is somewhat different, as you don't compile directly, but rather assemble packages from raw files with what's known as a fakeroot procedure. Slack has the exact same thing (SlackBuilds), except they're verified for stability (less emphasis on the ones in the -current tree, of course).

Arch also has a very lush wiki full of great documentation that is valuable for every Linux user. This is naturally owing to its much larger (and arguably zealous) community.

Arch's installation is much rawer. You're booted into a chroot environment and you set everything up from the command line. Nonetheless, a few menial tasks are still automated through the Arch Install Scripts.

Arch doesn't use initscripts like Slack, rather it uses systemd. This is a fairly new replacement for the System V init system and it is more abstracted than Slack's approach. It can generally be controlled through the userspace program systemctl.

In short: If you want the most bleeding edge and newest version of everything and are ready for things breaking, go for Arch.

-----------

Then we have Gentoo.

Gentoo is source-based, as opposed to Slack and Arch, which are binary distros. This means every package is compiled from source and can have its own particular flags (USE, CFLAGS, etc.) set for it. This means greater control over hardware optimization and exactly how you want it to be compiled, but the trade-off is for speed. However, updates may take less bandwidth.

Gentoo's package management system is named Portage, and is controlled by its frontend named emerge, which handles the actual process of compilation (ebuilds). Gentoo's system is thus the closest to *BSD ports. Worth noting is that the flexibility of Portage makes it OS-independent and it has been ported to other *nixes, even Mac OS X.

Gentoo uses the typical System V init system, but the runlevels are named rather than numbered. As opposed to Arch with systemd and Slack with BSD-style scripts.

Gentoo is also rolling-release like Arch, but it is not quite as focused on bleeding edge as Arch is, though you can get the latest through overlays and unstable repos.

Gentoo's installation process is also very minimal, but with a few quirks of its own. It requires that you compile your own kernel (though this is made easier with the built-in genkernel tool) and unload the base system and package manager (the stage3 tarball). Nonetheless, Gentoo has great documentation, so following it should be straightforward.

In short: If you want complete control over your individual package flags and to compile from source while having a reasonably stable, rolling release system, go for Gentoo. Note that there are also binaries for huge shit like Firefox and LibreOffice.

-------------------------

Fourth, there is the Sorcery family of distributions.

They're not very popular, but here's what you need to know: they're source-based, use a very peculiar yet powerful package manager called sorcery, which works on a wizard-themed allegory of handling packages (you don't install and remove packages from a repository, you cast and dispel spells from a grimoire and so on), they have a traditional release cycle.

The family of distros is as follows: Sorcerer, Lunar Linux and Source Mage. They typically offer even further control of the intricacies of individual packages than Gentoo, but are developed by small teams and consequently they aren't constantly updated due to low usage and community. Funny thing is Sorcerer came at around the same time as Gentoo and could have overtaken, but oh well.

The Sorcerer family package managers download the source code directly from the developer's website (much like SlackBuilds do), so as long as the URLs are up to date, so will the packages. Essentially rolling release but with no master repository.

However, individual package managers differ. The one I referred to above is Source Mage's, but the three distros while having common descent from one another, are mutually exclusive in their ways, with their grimoires being incompatible.

Their installation is also straightforward. Source Mage's in particular is very well made in that it's entirely command line-based, but is inside a guided environment (there are detailed instructions displayed on what exactly to do, you can switch between steps at will by typing next or prev, and see what you need to do by typing todo). Overall, it's just a slight layer on top of a Linux from Scratch system.

In short: If you want to get in the deep underground, try these one day, but I don't recommend these as a beginner due to sparse documentation and the community involvement that will likely be required from you.

-----------------------------------

In the end, there's CRUX.

CRUX is 64-bit only, source-based, uses a ports system of package management, has BSD-style initscripts and its packages are tarballs that follow a structure very close to BSD (Makefile, patches, md5sum, etc.) This is all handled through the pkgutils that CRUX uses, in particular the prt-get frontend (or pkgadd if you want more control). It's also devoted to having new software, but not to the point that Arch seeks to.

CRUX has no /usr/doc and avoids filesystem clutter.

Installation is quite straightforward and not all that difficult, but you are expected to compile your own kernel without the aid of any tools like Gentoo's genkernel.

In short: If you want a source-based Slackware and you have a 64-bit system, go for CRUX. But I still recommend you try one of the big three (Slackware, Arch, Gentoo) first to get your hands dirty and so you'll have fewer gotchas down the road.

--------------------------------

At the end of the day, you can also use a Slack-based distro like Salix, Slax or Zenwalk; Arch-based like Manjaro, ArchBang or Cinnarch; Gentoo-based like Sabayon and so on. The choice is yours.
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Offline techb

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Re: suggestions on *nix distro?
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2013, 09:39:47 PM »
Vezzy pretty much covered it.

About the steam thing, it is not debian only, I have it running natively on Arch with no issues.
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Offline flowjob

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Re: suggestions on *nix distro?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2013, 09:57:18 PM »
About the steam thing, it is not debian only, I have it running natively on Arch with no issues.


On the homepage I could only find a .deb, but yea it seems a few different distros have it in there repo too...
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Offline Darkvision

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Re: suggestions on *nix distro?
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2013, 04:24:46 AM »
well i finally got to eat today, half my coffee is still sitting here... Thanks for the posts :). Especially vezzy. Maybe make that into a sticky? that is thorough as hell man. Anyway i dont want it misunderstood, the linux/unix versions im used to are HIGHLY customized, and much of the updating(if not all of it) is done by SPAWAR, the last public release *nix distro i actually got to put my hands on for a few minutes was redhat back in the 90's. So consider me a n00b who wants to dive in. While ive heard about a number of distros, that is pretty much my familiarity: the name. That being said arch and slackware sound awesome. Maybe a duel boot in the future....Well i definitely have a good idea where to start looking tomorrow. Was going to finish this build tonight but im going to get some damn sleep. Love you all, cookies for all.
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Offline vezzy

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Re: suggestions on *nix distro?
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2013, 05:34:13 AM »
well i finally got to eat today, half my coffee is still sitting here... Thanks for the posts :). Especially vezzy. Maybe make that into a sticky? that is thorough as hell man.

Perhaps I could make a cleaned up and extended version, and then post it as a thread for newbies as a primer to get started with Unix-like systems.

Thank you for the suggestion.
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Offline lucid

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Re: suggestions on *nix distro?
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2013, 08:46:24 AM »

VEZZY'S LINUX RUNDOWN

That was the best and most entertaining description of different linux distributions I've ever read on the face of the internet. Your knowledge of linux seems very thorough. You made me completely reconsider trying Slackware again.

Sticky worthy.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 08:47:37 AM by lucid »
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Offline lucid

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Re: suggestions on *nix distro?
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2014, 07:40:51 PM »
Perhaps I could make a cleaned up and extended version, and then post it as a thread for newbies as a primer to get started with Unix-like systems.

Thank you for the suggestion.
If you copy/paste that into a new thread, I'll sticky that for you.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 07:41:08 PM by lucid »
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